Alignment, Identity, and the Cost of Hiding at Work - Kjell van Zoen

What happens when the life you built still works, but no longer fits? For Kjell van Zoen, that question became impossible to ignore during a conversation about scaling a business in a direction that looked successful on paper but felt wrong internally.

Kjell is a leadership coach, organizational development practitioner, and guide for people navigating personal and professional inflection points. In this conversation, they reflect on building and exiting Plywerk, moving between entrepreneurship and corporate life, coming out as non-binary, and learning how identity reshapes the way we experience work, leadership, and belonging.

This episode is for anyone quietly questioning whether their career still reflects who they are becoming. Brian and Kjell talk about alignment versus comfort, ambition versus agency, code shifting, inclusive leadership, and why the first honest step is not always leaving. Sometimes it is telling yourself the truth about what no longer fits.

Enjoy!

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Transcript

Kjell van Zoen 0:03

I just felt my heart sink. Just like, I I don't want to do this. This is not me. This is not what I want. I I don't this is not why I started this business. This is not why I'm in business. I made a decision the other day. I was like, I'm out. Like I'm I gotta I gotta get out. I came out as non-binary about four years ago. And it was a surprise for me. It was like one of those aha moments like people have. And it was very clear this is who I am. I wanted to present myself in a different way, dress up differently, and I just didn't want to continue to pretend like I was something that I wasn't.

Brian Aquart 0:40

Welcome to Why I Left, a podcast exploring life-changing career moves. I'm your host, Brian Akar. Join me as I chronicle real stories from real people about the bold decisions that transform their careers and lives. Let's dive in. Hello, and thanks for tuning in to this episode of Why I Left. What happens when the life you've built still works, but no longer fits because the person doing the work has changed. Today's conversation is about the kind of leaving we don't talk about enough: leaving identities, expectations, and environments that no longer allow you to be fully yourself. It's about what happens when personal clarity collides with professional reality and the courage it takes to choose alignment over autopilot. My guest today, Kjell Van Zoen, and their story reminds us that career transitions aren't always loud or dramatic. Sometimes they're just deeply personal. Sometimes they unfold quietly, and sometimes the bravest move is simply telling the truth to yourself first. Let's go check it out. Alright, welcome back. Our guest today is Kjell Van Zoen, a leadership coach, organizational development practitioner, and guide for people navigating moments of personal and professional inflection. Kjell's work sits at the intersection of identity, leadership, and intentional choice. Over the course of their career, they've moved across industries, built and exited multiple ventures, and navigated the complex transition from entrepreneurship into corporate life, all while doing the deeper work of redefining who they are and how they want to show up in the world. In this conversation, we talk about alignment versus comfort, ambition versus agency, and what it really means to lead without hiding, especially in systems that weren't designed with everyone in mind. This is a thoughtful, honest discussion about growth, clarity, and the cost of staying in places that no longer reflect who you're becoming. So I'm glad to share this one with you, Kim. Welcome to Why I Left. How are you doing?

Kjell van Zoen 2:54

I'm doing good, Brian. Thank you so much. And that was a really uh thoughtful introduction. That was amazing how you pieced that together.

Brian Aquart 3:01

Appreciate it. And look, I always love to give shouts out to uh the how we we get connected. And actually, Lori from uh last season connected us. And so small world, but I love like this little uh conclave of of folks in the in the Northwest who have been on this show. And so just a big shout out to Lori uh for connecting us. Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Lori. Yeah, of course. And and now would love to start off when you know when people look at your work today, they see clarity and tension. And when I was doing my background, I definitely saw that as well. But I'd love for you to kind of rewind the tape a bit. What were you optimizing for early in your career?

Kjell van Zoen 3:42

I mean, early in my career, when I was working, when I was starting businesses, I was always optimizing for time, right? Because time is money. And that that was the focus. And then at some point I came across lean manufacturing, like as the L-E-A-N, lean manufacturing as in Toyota production system, Kaizen, Kanban, Agile, whatever you call it, all kind of like falls in the same universe. And I kind of really started optimizing in a much bigger way and very quickly learned, well, at the same time, I was also really interested in already kind of optimizing culture, which is a strange thing to say, but really like around the idea of like optimizing for for more inclusive culture for more for for less top down. Like I was the owner of the company, and we had uh at one point about 25 employees, and I didn't love being an owner or or you know a leader in in that sense of I have to tell everybody what to do, the buck stops at me kind of ideas. Like, you know what, this is a shared thing, like I have to take more responsibility than others in certain aspects, and I own that, but I really wanted it to be more less hierarchical. And what I found with like once I got into lead manufacturing is that it kind of requires that to be less hierarchical. Like it's almost like turning the pyramid like upside down, where like I'm at the bottom holding everybody else up in the sense of like I'm just there to ensure everybody else has what they need to do a good job, and that's true optimization. So I started optimizing a lot more for for having the right culture that allows for collaboration.

Brian Aquart 5:08

And if you could just tell the audience, what was that company that you uh initially started?

Kjell van Zoen 5:13

This this rep this uh Yeah, it was called Plywork, uh P-L-Y-W-D-R-K. You can still find it, still there, plywork.com. I ended up selling the brand essentially, um, and closing down the business here in Portland. And we mounted photography onto bamboo and maple panels. So it was like a way to present photography or signage or art or illustration in a way that was sustainable, um, and kind of like eco eco-conscious. And I don't know, we kind of saw ourselves as like the patagonia of that industry, you know, like the patagony of the coffee mug with your your image on it or your mouse mat with your photo on it or whatever, you know, like uh the photo products industry.

Brian Aquart 5:51

Um and who or what shaped your earliest understanding of success? And when did that definition start to proofly maybe feel a little insufficient?

Kjell van Zoen 5:59

My earliest one was I took a class called digital business at University College London when I was studying there, and I was doing Dutch studies and I had to take an elective and I did digital business because I'd had a few businesses at that point, some very small ones, and just one or two people. And I was interested in this, and this whole class was like during the dot-com boom, was set up during the dot-com boom in England. I took it in 1999, and they had a person come to class who was who had taken the class four years prior and had just sold his business for 10 million pounds or something like that. And he had taken what he the business plan he'd written for that class and launched this online business and sold it. And I was like, whoa, I can do that, that's cool, that's what I'm doing this class for. I can write a business plan. And so I wrote a business plan called Bookhost, and I went to the Netherlands and I started a publishing company based on this idea of book host, uh, bookhost publishing. And you know, it failed. I learned a lot, but I had this like seed plant in my mind of like, I wanna I wanna make a lot of money and I use that money to do good. But it was always focused on like the lot of money part, you know, and I think over time my my perspectives have shifted a lot more towards like I want to build really good cultures, I want to be a part of good cultures because that's ultimately gonna make for a better experience for myself and everybody around me. Then I mean, yeah, you need enough money, but that wasn't the end goal, it wasn't to like sell and be a millionaire. That's that's no longer like an end goal I have. Would I like to have more money? Sure. But like, do I need it? Depends. You know, depends if I end up in a healthcare crisis in America, but um for for everyday purposes, I'm content, you know. So the the shift has gone from like this goal of like I gotta grow, grow, grow at all costs and sell, which I definitely tried to do. Yeah, and and there was a very key moment in my life where like that shifted. And it's when I was running ply work, I was about eight years into it. I was at this point where like either we close the business or we scale. And I was talking to some people in Portland, uh um an investor, and also he brought me to the table with another person who was a potential investor who had a framing business, and they were we were at this very fancy club that until very recently was a men's only club, and they were talking about how to scale ply work and get into every strip mall in America and all this stuff, and I just felt my heart sink, just like I I don't want to do this. This is not me, this is not what I want. I I don't this is not why I started this business, this is not why I'm in business. It just felt icky. It was like it's kind of masculinity and capitalism all kind of rolled together, and I was in the middle of it, and I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore. And I made a decision that day. I was like, I'm out, like I'm, I gotta, I gotta get out.

Brian Aquart 8:51

Yeah. And I I love that you share that story because it that's what we talk about a lot here, right? These career decisions, these career transitions. And so I'm hearing this, like that moment where you like realize, look, you're succeeding on paper, things are going well. Yeah. But things started to drift internally when when that when that meeting happened. So I appreciate you sharing that with us. You know, one of the things I I noticed, and you've you've shared that on some of our previous chats, that, you know, your career transitions over the last few years have been closely connected to a personal transition as well. How do you think about the relationship between identity and work?

Kjell van Zoen 9:28

Maybe I'll start off where I'm at now, because like even like maybe since we first spoke, I've I've continued to kind of like transition my my relationship to work. Right now I'm at a place where I'm recognizing there's ways in which I want to express myself. Um well, let me back up, I guess, a little bit. So I I came out as non-binary about four years ago. And it was, you know, a surprise for me. It was like one of those aha moments like people have. And it was very clear this is who I am. I wanted to present myself in a different way, dress up differently. And I just didn't want to continue to pretend like I was something that I wasn't. And it it shifted my perspective of work because I was working for a company that was relatively progressive as far as companies go. Very progressive, I would say. And um I fit in that culture very comfortably. But then once I came out, I didn't. And it wasn't that they didn't care, they just didn't know how to manage someone going through the kind of transition I was going through. And I didn't know how to manage going through a transition because I'd never done it before. And it became a pretty challenging situation for them and for me. And I'm saying all this in a way to kind of like not lay blame on them and not lay blame on myself, but it's more of like a cultural reality that a lot of people are in. And I think I'm lucky because like I think I am lucky, I am more privileged than many still, regardless of stepping down the ladder a little bit. And it was really hard, and I ended up losing that job essentially because of it. And I went through some pretty hard times, like internally and changes in my life, which included a divorce of a relationship I was in for 18 years. And luckily, we're very close still, when it was very amicable, but still, it's not easy. So, job, divorce, it all happened like in the same year, essentially. And then I ended up going back into that industry again because of money, essentially. Um okay, so yeah, bringing it back to identity and work. So my identity was what I've realized over since then, you know, since kind of leaving that company and then having to come back to the industry. I kind of begrudgingly came back into that industry, the efficiency industry, uh, working in corporate environment essentially, because I needed the money to survive, to live, you know, and have a job and all that. And but it wasn't my passion. My passion is really like ideally, like, given all things I could do, I would be uh a one-on-one coach to people, going through kind of work transitions themselves. That's that's that's what I'm good at, that's what I'm best at, and what I enjoy the most, transformational coaching for individuals. Um being in this industry, like it's not my passion. So, like all my life being an entrepreneur, and in many ways, like a lot of people do, I kind of associated my passion with my work. And and and that just wasn't there, and it I kind of lost myself a little bit in that. But I was also finding myself at the same time and expressing myself in new ways that was really amazing and wonderful, had nothing to do with work. So then I was like, well, what else do I want to express myself as? And it's music. And I've been playing music since I was 16, and I found these tapes that I recorded when I was 17 in the mid-90s, which I don't remember, where I wrote entire songs and sang them and played them and had drums and everything on a little four-track recorder. And yeah, I and I was like, oh my god, I need to do this again. And so I signed up for all these courses at a local community college, and I'm like just heavy deep into music now, and it's a passion. It's like I get to express myself in this way that's really important to me, and I put a lot of effort into it. But and what's happened is that by doing that and work not being my primary source of expression and like identity, as a lot, and also like so I've got this whole kind of like expression of self through how I dress and how I am in the world as a non-binary person, and then music and art and creativity and all that, and then I've got work, and by uh having this exterior kind of outlet of expression that has nothing to do with work, has now kind of in the last six months allowed me to come back to work in a way where I'm like, okay, well, what is it about work that I do like and what is my role there? And what I've kind of come to realize is that I want to like be the best coworker I can be to people or the best coach to my clients because that makes their life easier. And that's that's good. And um and that has nothing to do with capitalism, and it has nothing to do with a lot of things that I don't necessarily or things I don't get behind, things I have a hard time getting behind. It's not about money, it's not about like scaling, it's not about efficiency. I mean, it is ultimately it all comes back to efficiency. People are collaborative and nice to each other, they're more efficient. Like the psychological safety is the number one like indicator of successful teams. So uh, and you create that by creating belonging, and you create belonging by first of all being truly and it's hard to say just being nice to people because that's that's a loaded term as well. Um, it's about like showing up for yourself like you would show up for others, you know, if you were being kind to them, and then actually also showing up for others in that same way. A lot of people don't show up for themselves in a truly kind way.

Brian Aquart 14:55

Yeah, I and I I really appreciate you sharing that journey. I'm sure there are many who have gone through similar types of journeys and with and you know, with their respective orgs. Curious, when you came out as non-binary, what what did you learn, not just about yourself, but about the system and and the cultures you were working inside of?

Kjell van Zoen 15:16

I learned about I mean, I learned all ultimately that it's not binary, right? Like that it's not just man and woman and that like and that so much of our culture is built on that um being the assumption. There's like this there's an assumption that like you're either a man or a woman, and that's it. And the way we dress, dress codes, you know, the way we behave, how much we're paid, all these things are are rooted in that. Um if you look at like most of the if you look at like leadership in the world, most leaders are men, most leaders most leaders are white men in Western culture. Um and that's a reality. By kind of having to go inside myself and question who I am based on all these assumptions that our culture projects onto us through the workplace. And in the workplace, I would say it's kind of strongest. There's this whole idea behind dress code, you know. And I was raised in England where I had to, part-raised in England, where I had to wear school uniform from age 11 to 15, you know, and and there's still like an ickiness around that for me. Um, but like if you look at workplace dress code, it's like it's simply there to set expectations around how you should look that is like managed by somebody else. And that's very much like what I I'm not trying to go against that because I want to be annoying to people. You know, I go against that because it doesn't feel right to me. And what I found in the workplace is in opening my own eyes to gender and exploring gender within myself, it's like putting on a pair of glasses that I never had and a new set of lenses through which I can see the world that is not as binary gendered as I used to see it. And that's a journey that will last the rest of my life, that learning. And what I learn a lot is that in the workplace I get to be that person who sees that and also be an ally and an advocate for people who are not seeing it and maybe even if they're not intending to are doing harm by not seeing it.

Brian Aquart 17:27

Looking back on that, how how did aligning your internal identity with your external work change the way you now define success? Or even even the way you uh chose where to stay?

Kjell van Zoen 17:41

What I'm learning being part of the DIA committee, we're working with a really great consulting firm here in Portland. So two women, black woman and white woman, who are have decades of experience doing DIA work. And they are reminding me that, and I know this, but we all get very um it's easy to get impatient with change when it's needed. And they're reminding us constantly of like how we have to build a foundation that allows for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And that's gonna take a long, long time, like years, years and years and years. The work will never end. Um, and the thing that I'm realizing about myself is that before I was so kind of results driven on efficiency in the sense of like time, right? Trying to like reduce lead times, reduce throughput times, all that kind of stuff. And when it comes to cultural change, like you can't approach it that way. What you have to do, I feel, now is you have to put your best foot forward in a way that's humble and not trying to push or force anything. I always say that you can't force people to do anything, you can only influence. And sometimes influence comes in the form of a gun, you know, that's influence too. But ultimately, in the workplace, we often try and tell people what to do and we expect them to do it because it's their job, right? But that's not how it works. I mean, if they do it begrudgingly, yeah, okay, they've done it, but are they are they gonna really like remember to do it again? Do they care about it? So the thing I'm learning is that like my my metric for for success is changing from a here's a goal, we have to reach this, to here's something we'd like to get to, and there's milestones along the way. And what's our next milestone? And what can we do today to kind of move us towards that milestone? And as long as we've done our best that day to work us, move us towards that milestone, that's all we can do. That that's a good result. It's like the result is no longer the end goal, it's the journey, and showing up in that journey in a way that's ethical and feels good and is moving us towards the next milestone that will eventually lead to a goal. And it and what will often happen along the way is that the goal changes, right? Right, of course. Um, so and that allows for the utility then, if you have that perspective, to not be like, because it's so easy to like have a goal change, and then people are like, wait, that's my goal, it can't change, and then they're forcing a goal that no longer is necessary and relevant. Damn.

Brian Aquart 20:00

You know, you talk a lot about alignment, which I I love and definitely resonate with. You know, where do where do you see people often confusing alignment with comfort? And what does that confusion quietly cost them over time?

Kjell van Zoen 20:13

Yeah, I mean, I see it a lot where like in our company, we did a a poll, a great place to work poll, and we scored pretty damn high. But then when we when you dig into the results a little further, it's like you realize that the reason we scored so high probably is because it's mostly a company of white male engineers who all think the same way. So often like we confuse that comfort of like, I'm so comfortable in this workplace, I feel so great. It's like, well, is that because this is actually a place where everybody feels belonging, or is it because you're just part of the majority of how people show up there? Yeah, and these days, like I don't, you know, like when I'm surrounded by a bunch of other guys, they just assume I'm just another guy and they talk to me like they were any other guy. And I've been in situations where like a bunch of guys get together and they talk about women in certain ways, and I'm just like, why are you talking this way in front of me? Like, do you not understand this? Is not okay for me. Like, in that sense, you can just treat me like there's a woman in the room because like that's my perspective. It's not the same as a woman, my perspective because I don't have that lived experience, but like it's also not the same as a guy because like I don't feel that way, and like it's not okay to say these things. So, you know, like alignment is so often like rooted in being comfortable around people that are like you. And like true alignment as a company, if you're aligned with being an inclusive workplace that is open to create belonging for everybody, which I think is literally impossible in our current political and economic landscape, but we can get as close as we can possibly can if we're doing better. The better is really to the recognition. Recognize that if you're not feeling a little uncomfortable as somebody who is representative of the majority of that company, then the place is probably not very well aligned with being inclusive.

Brian Aquart 22:12

And you know, you made an important distinction between ambition and also agency. How do you define that difference? Does the difference, does that distinction change at all? Like the way people make career decisions? Ambition and agency.

Kjell van Zoen 22:27

Can you expand a little more on that?

Brian Aquart 22:29

Yeah, I remember seeing in in some of some of your work, you talk about, you know, people having the agency do to do said thing, but also the ambition to do something. So like sometimes that there's like a a distinction between the two, like wanting to do and and truthfully being able to do. And so just curious about that.

Kjell van Zoen 22:49

And how does change in the workplace?

Brian Aquart 22:51

Yeah, yeah. Um, not in the work but look, but how they how that distinction changes the way people make career decisions.

Kjell van Zoen 23:00

Oh, I see, I see.

Brian Aquart 23:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kjell van Zoen 23:01

Um yeah. Well, I mean, I have an ambition to be an independent coach. That's what I was doing in between kind of leaving this industry and going back to it. I was a DEIA coach, working focused 100% on working with cisgender, heterosexual white guys in helping them think around like what their role is in DEIA and how they can show up in a way that's useful and doing the good work. It was not a good time to do a career switch into that when I did it.

Brian Aquart 23:30

Right.

Kjell van Zoen 23:33

The ambition is there and it still is, but do I have the agency to do it? No, not right now. Like I can't afford to do it. It's literally, you know, politically become targeted as an industry. And yeah, it's uh I don't have the agency right now. I'm working towards it slowly. And yeah, that and that, you know, I see that in a workplace all the time in lots of different ways. Like it's so easy for a company to be ambitious about some goal, again, coming back to goals, right? Um, but do we actually have the agency? Like, no, you know, like we don't have the agency because we're not we're not a company, and I'm saying we are a company in general, but just in general, like most companies are so hierarchical that like people aren't given the agency to, you know, we're we're sold this ambition of like, you know, we're sold this idea of like join this company, climb the corporate ladder, but you can have ambition, you can do all these things. But the reality is that like most of the time it's always gonna be a very narrow kind of like way in which that ambition or in which in which you can kind of like achieve ambition. We can have ambition within uh a corporate environment of where we want to go, but like I said earlier, things change all the time. So whatever ambition we have, the chances that we'll actually be able to get there are really slim, I think, most of the time. And in that sense, we don't have the agency to kind of express ourselves in the way we want to professionally. Like I have this at my company too. We have a very kind of like linear progress from like my role into the next role, which means I would go from being a coach, DJ Genet Management coach, to a program manager, which is a totally different kind of job that I have zero interest in doing. And we don't currently have a career path that is different than that. And they're they're interested in creating one, and that's really good. Uh, and I feel very lucky to have that opportunity, but often that's not the case. So, like we have our own ways in which we want to express ourselves. That's constantly changing. Like, if we're growing as humans, we're constantly changing how we want to express ourselves and what we want to do and what we're interested in doing. And I think creating environments where you allow people to thrive means like allowing people to change what they want to do at work. Like, sure, it can't change like that, you know, but like allowing people to maneuver in their and it might go from being I'm a manager and now I'm not a manager, and that's okay. But then we're not gonna like pay you tons less money because all of a sudden now you're not as valuable. I think that's BS. You know, I think people should get paid based on following their passion and doing it well. And if we did that, we'd have such a much, much more efficient workforce.

Brian Aquart 26:10

And people would be like enjoying their jobs much more. What I'm I'm hearing here is a lot with what you're saying is around you're le you and you know, you've come into this whole leading without hiding, right? And obviously there was in the prior role, it created some risk. Truthfully, that that didn't work out in that role, but you know, you found your way now, you found your way back into this space again. I wanted to do to zoom out for a moment, moment and just reflect a little bit and have you reflect on what is all of this taught you, right? Now that you're back in this space, you're working with the company that seems to be obviously aligned with who you are. What has all this taught you?

Kjell van Zoen 26:49

Well, it's interesting. You started the question with saying that, like, you know, not wanting to hide at work or not wanting to but I think what it's actually taught me is how to hide effectively. So like code shifting. You know? I never learned that growing up. I didn't need to. And I was talking to my my friend about it, uh, a Chinese woman who's a very good friend of mine. And yeah, she was like, oh yeah, you're learning how to code shift. Congratulations. I'm like, oh yeah. Um and that that's that's been, and I think it's a really important lesson for me to be able to show up and be a part of the workplace in a way that does feel good for me. And it but not I didn't have that experience at the last workplace, so I wasn't able to, and I was just showing up the way I wanted to show up, but it was like too abrasive, it was too much for them, and it was like hard for me because I didn't know what I was doing, I didn't know how to do that. I never taught that. I mean, everybody learns it to a certain degree, but like this is a whole different thing. Like now I have to just now I can show up at work knowing like I mean it's not even just work, even with family members and certain friends, you know, who just are more conservative, like I have to be mindful. Like I don't wear nail polish when I'm going to industrial facilities that I work with. You know, I make sure I don't have nail polish on when I go into those uh or or eye makeup or other stuff, you know. Like I have and and at work I can, like in my office where we are in Portland, I can do that, that's not a problem. But when I go and see our clients, which are industrial spaces usually, yeah, like I I have to kind of shift. And I don't tend to introduce my pronouns when I'm going to industrial facilities, but I do in my workplace here in Portland. So it's a matter of like, yeah, like I have to kind of like be different people in different places and then but doing it in a way where I'm still preserving my own honor and who I am and honoring myself and not putting that ownership on other people who just aren't there yet.

unknown 28:45

Right.

Brian Aquart 28:45

And I would imagine too that especially in certain environments, there's there could potentially be a safety issue as well, right? Like you want to make sure you said people who may not be there yet, at times response is you you just never know what you're gonna get. And so I would I would imagine correct me if I'm wrong, but but at times do you ever from a safety standpoint also try to implement some of those code switching?

Kjell van Zoen 29:11

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I mean that's that's why I don't wear nail polish to and I make up when I go to a drugship facility because it it doesn't feel safe, you know, like especially in this current political environment, like trans people are free targeted and like it's easy for me to hide and not look at all trans. And that's essentially what I do when I go to a drugship facility, which is a privilege for me to be able to do.

Brian Aquart 29:36

Um so we'd love to talk a little bit now about some lessons learned. What did you misunderstand most about leadership earlier in your career, especially before you have the clarity you have now?

Kjell van Zoen 29:47

I think I think the idea that a leader is the person who decides what's done and tells people what to do. And now I think a leader is someone who supports people to do the best possible work they can do and steps back and is able to manage the discomfort of not having the oversight that they would like to have. Makes a lot of sense.

Brian Aquart 30:06

And would love for you to share some advice for our audience. For someone who is maybe quietly questioning their career but feels anchored by stability, and that could be from money, identity, or even expectations. What's the first honest step you think they should take?

Kjell van Zoen 30:24

I think the first step is what are you questioning? Like, where is that question coming from? Like where inside of you is that that question arising from? Or externally, where's that question coming from? Like what's leading to this question? Explore that, go deep, you know? Journal. Do whatever it takes to get to the root of that question. Because that ultimately will give you some idea of where to go next. And the other thing I would say is that like ultimately it's a financial calculation as well. You know, like if that question arises, a a deep need of like, yeah, I need to, I need to change because of this job does not align with my identity in any way, and I feel like I cannot in any way show up and truly be myself. And the amount of energy I'm putting into co-shifting at work is taking away my ability to show up after work for myself and others. Like, if you're at that point, then like, yeah, you probably want to like shift, right? But if you're at a point where like, you know, and it's kind of where I'm at right now. It's like this isn't perfect by any stretch of imagination, company could be way better and more inclusive, but I'm very comfortable where I'm at, and this is not a good time to be changing careers financially, like just in the economic place where we're at. And I should probably stick around for a while, but like at least I know where I want to go, and I'm slowly working towards that. And I'm also like pretty I'm able to be pretty honest with my boss about that as well, and they support me and like eventually they know I'm gonna become an independent coach one day again.

Brian Aquart 31:56

Yeah, and that's great that you have that that type of support. Looking forward, what are you most hopeful about in the future?

Kjell van Zoen 32:03

I think right now, like, I was actually watching a little video. Do you know where Billy Porter is? He's an actor.

Brian Aquart 32:09

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kjell van Zoen 32:11

Um, so I was watching a little interview with him this morning where someone asked him, like, what makes you hopeful right now? And he was saying something along the lines of that right now, this administration and people in this country are essentially like they're pushing so hard and they're like doing such crazy things that even the media are now like, hey, hang on, this is not okay. Whereas, like, even like a year ago, it was still like, wow, you know, let's talk about this. Like, what what let's reach across the aisle, let's do these things. And this is kind of what Billy Porter was saying. Like, there is no more reaching across the aisles, like this has to end. This is this is not okay. Like, and I think right at the end he said, like, if it if the roles were reversed right now and the president was not Republican, there's no chance that this person would still be president with what's happening. Um and and and and to speak from a like a larger perspective, like uh I think that right now what's happening is that I think our current administration is uh and everything that's tied up with that, is like a scared animal that's dying backed into a corner. These are old, mostly white men who cannot continue to live the way that they've shown up in the world because it's no longer accepted and that freaks them out and they don't like it, and they're they're taking it out on everybody and and not able to kind of reconcile that within themselves. And what gives me hope is that like the fact that we're here at that point where they are like no longer accepted by the the majority of our society and our culture is gives me a lot of hope. And like coming from Europe as well, when I go back to Europe, I still see that like Europe is not having that conversation yet. They're still like very much rooted in this kind of let's all be nice to each other and you know, colonialization and racism. You know, we don't want to talk about that. Um whereas here that like that conversation is is is you cannot say you cannot go through life without having that conversation anymore. Um and I think that conversation is what's leading to this to this turmoil that we're seeing right now, which is awful. But I also think that it's a reflection of like a really good conversation that we're willing to have in this country that other countries are not willing to have yet. So like that gives me a lot of hope.

Brian Aquart 34:23

And what's one question you have for me that I could hopefully answer?

Kjell van Zoen 34:28

How's your perspective on work and identity within the workplace and career changed from doing all these interviews?

Brian Aquart 34:36

Yeah, I think um identity, you know what's interesting? When I think about identity, I think about it in more so the professional sense around like, I'm this account or I am a designer, I am an attorney, right? I think you what you've brought to the show is personal identity, right? Which, which is which I I love the lens that you've brought to that kind of this conversation around that. But the show has showed me that as we think about professional identities, and I can actually attest to this personally prior to the show, is that wow, we get so caught up in these things, right? I am an attorney, right? I am a doctor or I am a nurse. And we get so caught up in these identities of ours that they almost become limiting factors for what we allow ourselves to do. And not even necessarily even allow, but just just even think that we can do because we're so stuck in this professional box, fill in the blank. And what I've loved about these conversations over these years, and this has been, you know, a great season, is that you just continue to hear how folks have one, taken a step back and recognized that, you know what, maybe this specific professional identity is not who who I'm becoming, is not who I truly want to be anymore. And they've then given themselves the latitude to be like, you know what, let me explore a little bit. And I've loved seeing that and hearing that. I always say I didn't know where a lot of these conversations were gonna go when I first started this show. And it's been beautiful to witness everyone's reflection. And then truthfully, and when I on my DMs and things like that, hear how folks see themselves in the guests that show up. And so that's been that's that's been the biggest kind of eye-opening thing for me is how limiting, how limiting we we keep ourselves because of our own respective professional identities. Yeah. And kudos to everyone who is finally or in the process of um looking at that a little bit. And there's nothing wrong with identity as a lawyer or as a doctor, there's nothing wrong with that. But but thinking be thinking you can only do one thing because you're this thing, I think is uh is is is way too limiting.

Kjell van Zoen 36:57

Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

Brian Aquart 37:00

Great question. Well, Kjell, I just want to thank you again for for joining the show today. Like I said, I'm glad Lori connected us. Uh before we wrap, I would want to definitely give you space where you can share where people can find you and support your work. So where where can people uh look you up?

Kjell van Zoen 37:17

On my website. Uh so it's my last name, vanzoen.com. Uh, and from there you can find everything else. And I'm on LinkedIn as well. You can also type my name into Google. I'm the only Kjell Van Zoen in the world, and you'll find a ton of stuff.

Brian Aquart 37:29

I love that. I love that, right? Clearly unique. Uh so want to thank you for all that info. And look, that'll do it for today's episode again. I want to thank Kjell Van Zoen for joining me today. I'll share all their info in the show notes. Hope you all have a great week, and we'll definitely see you next time. Kjell, thank you.

Kjell van Zoen 37:49

Thank you so much.

Brian Aquart 37:50

Thanks for listening to why I left. Join us next time for more inspiring stories about growth, resilience, and transformation. Visit us online at www.yileft.co. That's whyileft.co.